Friday, February 24, 2012
Luna Lounge owner Rob Sacher on Joey Ramone, a new CBGB and what killed the Lower East Side
Rob Sacher, the former co-owner of Luna Lounge on Ludlow Street, has written "Wake Me When It's Over." The book covers his formative years growing up in Brooklyn in the 1960s, his days as a musician and songwriter and time running several clubs, including Mission (1988-1993, where the Ace Bar is now on Fifth Street) and Luna Lounge (which relocated to Williamsburg for a 16-month stint in 2007-2008). Sacher is self-publishing his book through his own DIY imprint and is raising promotion money through Kickstarter. The funding campaign ends on Wednesday. (He already reached his modest goal of $5,000.) The official release date of the book is Thursday.
Sacher talked to us via email about his first musical memories, his friend Joey Ramone and the state of the Lower East Side music scene today.
You were born and raised in Brooklyn. What was your first musical memory? How did that help set the course for your career?
Yes, born and raised in Brooklyn. My first musical memory. Well, that's a bit difficult to say for sure but my mom says that I would raise myself up in my crib at the age of one and rock back and forth to Elvis Presley's "Blue Suede Shoes" every time she played that record. I don't recall doing that but I do remember falling in love with The Shirelles when I heard "Will You Love Me Tomorrow" on the radio. I guess I was about four or five when that song was first played.
However, I had other moments a bit later on when I realized that the joy that music brought me was something that other people also felt. Two moments that are forever part of who I am came first when I was nine and I discovered a group of teenage girls singing in the handball courts near my home, and second, when I first heard an electric 12-string guitar.
Why did you decide to write this book?
I decided to write "Wake Me When It's Over" because that time is now over and is consigned to the pages of indie rock history in New York. There are no other books that have yet been written about the New York music scene that came after CBGBs, and Luna Lounge may possibly have been the most important NY club of its size in the 1990s and early 2000s.
Where else could you have come in off the street and see The Strokes, Elliott Smith, Interpol, Longwave, The National and stellastarr* for free — all possibly in the same week? And, on top of that, you could come by on Monday night and see Marc Maron, Louis C.K. and a dozen other young comedians working out their craft on the Luna Lounge stage? I guess I have a story to tell.
People had mixed reactions when news surfaced of a possible resurrected CBGB. You wrote for PBS, "Don’t burden yourself with a tether to some idea or concept of a bygone age." Do you think the city/Lower East Side will ever have a time and place like that again?
No. The creative people who lived there were allowed to be driven out by real-estate interests and that includes anyone and everyone who stood by and did nothing to stop that from happening. I'm talking about the Community Board, the City Council members who represent lower Manhattan, the developers, the real-estate agents, the landlords, the co-op and condo owners, the mayor, and especially the people who were willing to allow the commercial transformation of this once glorious neighborhood into the cultural travesty it has become so that their apartments would increase in value.
Well, you get what you deserve in this life, I believe. And, because few people were standing up for places like Collective:Unconscious, Tonic, CBGB and Luna Lounge, the Lower East Side must now live with obnoxious bistros that cater to people with little interest or understanding of the former importance of this neighborhood.
Perhaps, it's time for a TAKE BACK THE LOWER EAST SIDE movement. I would love to see that happen. Of course, I can hear the vested interests and the people who live here now who couldn't care less remind me of my recent words, "Don’t burden yourself with a tether to some idea or concept of a bygone age." Of course, the difference between CBGB and Luna Lounge is that Hilly Kristal is dead and I am still around, available, and would love to resurrect Luna Lounge under the right conditions if such conditions could be created.
You and Joey Ramone once talked about opening a club. What did you envision for the venue?
Joey always wanted to open a club and we talked about it on many occasions. He liked a club that I co-owned before Luna Lounge called the Mission. He and I went around the neighborhood in the early 1990s and looked at different possible locations.
Joey's brother, Mickey, is now trying to find a location to open up a club called Joey Ramone Place, and Mickey and I have had long conversations about what Joey would have envisioned for this kind of bar. In the end, it really just has to be Joey in any and every way possible. Joey Ramone was very smart, irreverent, had a great appreciation for the absurd, a great sense of humor, and had awesome taste in music. Any club that either Joey would have opened or Mickey will open will be all of those things all wrapped up in one.
And, by the way, we've been looking at locations for more than year and all we keep hearing is that the Community Board will never support our request for approval of a liquor license because there are too many bars in the neighborhood now.
Can you imagine that? The Lower East Side and the East Village Community Board can tolerate what my grandfather would have called the mishigas and meshugine but have no place for a proven cultural icon like Luna Lounge and a possible club connected to the most important New York rock musician who ever lived — yeah, that's right, the most important New York rock musician ever!
A lot of up-and-coming bands came in and out of your doors at the Luna Lounge, which closed in June 2005 when the landlord sold the building to a developer. Which band made the most immediate impact on you?
That's a tough question to answer because, in so many ways, I feel like so many of those artists were like my children. I never had any of my own so those bands were like my kids. Here's a short list. Of course, The Strokes, Interpol and The National are now three of the biggest bands in the world and those three are, without doubt, the three biggest New York bands of the last decade. All three of these bands did their very first shows at Luna Lounge and I am grateful to have helped in some way to nurture the start of their careers.
Beyond that, I still have a close friendship with Michael Jurin of stellastarr* and Steve Schiltz and Shannon Ferguson of Longwave. I feel like I had a lot of influence in helping both of those bands get started. Steve and I talk all the time and I am so honored to have him in my life. I think Steve Schiltz is the most underrated musician I know. I just love the music he creates. And last, I was fortunate to know the brilliant Elliott Smith for the short time he was with us in New York and the short time that he gave to us on this Earth.
How would you describe the state of the Lower East Side live music scene today?
Bands might come in from Brooklyn and might still play in a handful of clubs that offer sub-par basement spaces or play as one band on a bill of a baker's dozen on any given night but that is hardly an excuse for the idea of a scene.
With the exception of The Living Room, a worthy acoustic room, there is no club on the Lower East Side doing anything of any value in nurturing a scene — how can they with the fratboy, baseball cap, yuppie types that dominate the sidewalks? They are a cancer on any artistic scene on which they come in contact. And, that cancer is what killed the Lower East Side.
You can find an excerpt of the book here.
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Joey Ramone,
Rob Sacher
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21 comments:
a little self-righteous, no?
it is not easy to stop the so called "development". money is a strong drug.
there is no commercial rent protection, NONE AT ALL, NONE.
it is hard enough to fight for a residential tenant with a lease. there are no protections for commercial tenants except money.
", The Strokes, Interpol and The National are now three of the biggest bands in the world and those three are, without doubt, the three biggest New York bands of the last decade" - he's bragging about this?
" The creative people who lived there were allowed to be driven out by real-estate interests and that includes anyone and everyone who stood by and did nothing to stop that from happening. I'm talking about the Community Board, the City Council members who represent lower Manhattan, the developers, the real-estate agents, the landlords, the co-op and condo owners, the mayor, and especially the people who were willing to allow the commercial transformation of this once glorious neighborhood into the cultural travesty it has become so that their apartments would increase in value."
You are absolutely right, but the artists also stood by and allowed this to happen. You don't understand that the people who have allowed this to happen, including the creative types are the ones who come back now after abandoning the neighborhood and say that the Community Board won't allow a liquor license for important cultural venues in the East village and the LES. People are clueless to the day to day struggles of those who have decided to remain here and fight it out. You just don't get the situation. You understand, the people who have been fighting all along have gotten no support. Terrible things have and continue to happen in our buildings, including an over saturation of douche bag bars and lounges. That have been intentionally situated to drive people out of the buildings to be replaced by transient students paying $5000 a month for illegally converted four bedroom apartments.
You are dead wrong about the liquor license issue. What wound up happening was that the Community Board SLA Committee members who are part of the NY Nightlife Association pushed through every applicant that came forward for a liquor license. You have to understand that the more bars and lounges that are around furthers the vision of the Bloomberg administration, bar and lounge owners and real estate developers to turn our neighborhood into an entertainment district, which we are not. People still live and work here. The more we head towards this vision, the higher the value of the bar and lounge owners assets.
At this point, NO NEW LICENSES IN RESOLUTION AREAS. If one would like to take over a place that has an existing liquor license, you will have to pay for it. Once a place acquires a liquor license then it will be that way for all eternity as it is an asset. There are also density issues surrounding liquor licenses and now various blocks have been designated as resolution areas, which means too many, too many accidents, too dangerous, etc. . .
Which part don't you understand.
Great interview! Really looking forward to buying and reading his book.
"I'm talking about the Community Board, the City Council members who represent lower Manhattan, the developers, the real-estate agents, the landlords, the co-op and condo owners, the mayor, and especially the people who were willing to allow the commercial transformation of this once glorious neighborhood into the cultural travesty it has become so that their apartments would increase in value."
Yeah, he lost me here. Especially the people? Was it really a fair fight, individuals up against the many-headed hydra of predatory equity, NYU, relentless developers, and a mayor who bought his third term?
Also, nygrump, you are my favorite EVG commenter. Stay gold/grumpy :)
Great interview.
Also - I love that the readers of this site (the first 3 commenters) are such epic douchebags, that they are criticizing someone who was/is a major contributor to arts and culture in our neighborhood.
I love this site (truly), however, so many of the readers are whiney, closeminded jerks. It's pretty hilarious.
If this interview is representative, the book would comprise of (i) i love music (ii) i opened a bar / entertainment venue, where numerous now-famous persons performed (iii) rents increased (iv) club closed (v) THIS IS A CALAMITIOUS TRAGEDY (vi) i still know those famous persons. Does he have any insights on how bars and nightlife contribute to gentrification?
Ummmm i call bullshit
LES And east village has definately changed, and is and will forever be changing, but it still has a huge and healthy music scene. Mercury lounge, rockwood music hall 1&2, pianno's, the living room, Bowery ball room, just to name a few. That doesnt count all the odd ball bars left right and center that cater to free music. It has changed yes, and thogh sad to see CB's, banjo jims, & the bottom line close, this happens all the time. People still go to hit the LES On any given noght of the week not just to get trashed, but to see a good show anywhere in that hood. Ild say its this hood or williamsburg that still has one of the heathiest music scenes around, next to say nashville, or austin.
Kj hardy
To whom it may concern:
The 5 Spot was down here. If you don't know what that is, look it up. This was l o n g before CBGBs.
I'll put in a plug for the Cake Shop. They have a good thing going there. Maybe not the best acoustics. But I like the scene.
I liked seeing Talk Normal at The Stone and Timmy's Organism at The Bowery Ballroom.
I'm with what nygrump says. For chrissakes The Strokes?
Let me ask you something Rob. Have you ever faught against the gentrification in the area, or that's not for you? Do you live here in the East Village/LES?
Thanks Rob Sacher, for telling it like it is! Hats off to you.
Hi folks,
Very cool to see all the comments in regard to my point of view. I will address each one so far:
To blue grass: I do not feel self righteous and I respect your opinion if you disagree. I invested everything I ever earned in the clubs I created and co-owned in New York and many thousands of people supported them over the years. I think that gives me a right to have an opinion.
To ny grump: I am not bragging. I feel fortunate to have been able to provide a stage for The Strokes, Interpol and The National, three of the biggest bands in the world and the three biggest New York bands of the last decade. I also feel fortunate to have been able to provide that stage for several thousand other bands too.
You may or may not like those bands. That's your opinion and I respect it.
To anonymous: As I see it, the job of an artist is to make art and I can hardly find it within myself to blame them for not being good at politics and money oriented endeavors. So, blaming them for not being able to stand up to the monied interests is harsh and unfair. As for the community board and your comment "the Community Board SLA Committee members who are part of the NY Nightlife Association pushed through every applicant that came forward for a liquor license", I am in agreement with you in that no one seemed to care about the cultural impact of what those new bars would have on the LES and that the community board should have said no to those new establishments. Nobody on the board seemed to understand the difference between Tonic, Luna, Collective and the crap that was coming. I did say that the community board was part of the reason for the decline in the cultural value of the neighborhood.
To LvV: Sorry I lost you; I know I was painting with a very broad brush but I feel that many people were content to sit by and watch the cultural destruction of the LES by being apathetic and at the same time expecting their co-op or condo to continue to increase exponentially in value. I obviously don't mean everyone; you are correct in that some folks who own property really cared but were simply overwhelmed by the issue. I respect your opinion.
To AC: The owners of Cake Shop are excellent bookers and have created a real gem of a club with what they have to work. I just don't think a basement space is a worthy showcase for a great band and you're right, the sound is awful (but that's not their fault)...
To Anonymous said: Here's my take on the clubs that you listed. It's just my opinion and you are certainly entitled to yours:
Mercury Lounge: Not a club that ever nurtured a LES scene although it is a decent spot for bands that can draw over 150 people.
Bowery Ballroom: See above but increase that number to 400 people.
Rockwood: Books too many bands on any given night with not enough respect for the artists that play there. They don't allow sound checks for the bands so that can't help a band learn how to define their sound. If it's the best that the LES can offer to an artist that can draw 40 people, I think that is not good enough...
Pianos: If you like it, you can go there.
Living Room: I stated in the article that LR is still a worthy venue. I love that place and hope they can remain on Ludlow street forever...
To Marty, Richard, and glamma: Thank you so much for your support. It means a lot to me. :)
To Rob Sacher: I appreciate the personal response (to everyone) and hear what you are saying. Please also know that renters of property cared and did what we could. It is a complicated situation we have here in the EV. Rock on!
I like someone with balls.
Raises some good points. We all share in the responsibility of creating our community.
If nothing else, in this capitalist society, we vote with our wallets, however limited they are, as to which local businesses we choose to support, be they music venues, grocery stores, book shops, restaurants, cafes.
- East Villager
Cake Shop on Ludlow still has great shows, cheap cover, good drinks and a divey space, my favorite in LES for sure. I mean just check out these photos from this Pissed Jeans show and tell me it doesn't look like a rockin' good time:
http://www.brooklynvegan.com/archives/2010/06/eddy_current_su_1.html
Yes, thank you, Rob, for taking the time to respond. I'm a longtime LESer and music devotee who frequented Luna (and CBs and Tonic, and smaller) and was devastated to witness your ouster. Reading the interview, I, too, regretted that you didn't give more cred to the remaining venues, in particular Cake Shop, which does excellent scene-supporting booking (music and readings)despite that space. Grateful they are here.
Anyway, it's easy to lose context and nuance in a short interview. Congrats on the book. I'll read it, as well as go to the club you hopefully open. Rock on ...
thanks to Rob for responding. And another nod here to the Cake Shop. Cool place, upstairs and down.
I don't want to get hung up on one club on the Lower East Side but while Cake Shop has an excellent booking policy and you will see a number of very good bands there, please understand that there are other issues that are very important to me.
The main issue is sound and having been a live sound man for seven years I want a band to sound as good as they possibly can on that stage. You cannot do that in a basement space with low ceilings and concrete floor and walls. It sounds like your standing in a subway station at Cake Shop. The sound sucks and there is no way to fix it.
Second issue is that a band should have a somewhat exulted position in relation to the people who come to see their performance. That is the purpose of a stage. At Cake Shop there is no stage; just a tiny low-rise platform and outside of the first few rows of people standing in front of the band, it's nearly impossible to see the band when the room is full. That bothers me because it does not do appropriate justice to a worthy performer. It's not the end of the world but it just isn't good enough as far as I see it for what I would want out of a showcase club in a music community that once was as important as the Lower East Side.
Third, outside of the bands that perform in the basement, I don't really feel much of anything on the ground floor level. It's just sort of a holding space until you go downstairs to see the band for which you paid. I find that boring and it is not a sign of a very good club.
Fourth, I don't support the idea of charging admission to see bands because that will always inhibit a band's ability to raise their profile. We never charged admission at Luna lounge and I think that was a major reason why so many bands played there and why so many scenes developed in that room. You could just walk in and discover a treasure before you ever knew anything about them.
I think it's a shame that clubs have to put their artists in a basement because all the one and two story buildings were allowed to be torn down so that apartment houses could replace them.
The bands should be understood as something special and should be seen that way too...
nygrump said...
", The Strokes, Interpol and The National are now three of the biggest bands in the world and those three are, without doubt, the three biggest New York bands of the last decade" - he's bragging about this?"
TOTALLY AGREE! While I do agree that the late 90s/early 2000s were arguably the last gasp for downtown culture let's not pretend that all of those bands from that time were 100% unique. Alot of it was totally and obviously derivative. Most of the bands that were being hyped at that time have, as far as I can see, already run out of gas and are destined for footnote status. As much as people want to believe that that time in NYC was as important as the 70s and 80s..it wasn't. But compared to now it seems that it was.
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